00:00:01 Robert Klupacs I’m delighted to welcome today’s guest, Brendan Gardner, CEO of the Royal Victorian Eye and Ear Hospital. The Eye and Ear is Australia’s own specialist eye, ear, nose and throat hospital and has been operating since 1863. A tremendous legacy. The Eye and Ear sees over 250,000 patients a year and offers over 110 different specialist clinics for the diagnosis, monitoring and treatment of vision and hearing loss. The hospital also has a 24 hour emergency department for patients requiring urgent care and treatment. Brendon first joined the Victorian public healthcare system in 1990 as a health information manager and over the following 35 years since held a variety of roles, including nine years as executive director of the Frankston Hospital and in 2019 was appointed as CEO of the Royal Eye and Ear Hospital. Welcome to the podcast.

00:01:01 Brendon Gardner Thanks Robert. That’s actually a bit frightening when you read that out. So 35 years has gone somewhere.

00:01:13 Robert Klupacs Brendon you have, as you just said, you’ve had a very long history in the healthcare system, but I’d love to know how you found your calling – health information to a CEO is interesting journey. Can you tell our listeners about your journey to becoming the CEO of the Eye and Ear hospital?

00:01:27 Brendon Gardner Yeah. Thanks Robert. It’s actually, I’d never probably quite had it on the career pathway. I wanted to be a physio to be honest with where I original intentions were and I worked as a physio aide when I was at high school. But I always had an interest in the medical field and my dad actually worked for BHP and, you know, Dad would come home and talk about tqm and all this stuff, which I was like, what the hell’s that? You know little did I know that actually dealing with that sort of stuff later in life, but so the management side, I quite enjoyed obviously with the people peace, but I didn’t get the marks getting to physio and I had a friend from my school days a year above me who got into health information management and I didn’t. I didn’t have a clue what it was. But after Walmart, I’ll start that and see if I transition over to physio the next year and after year 1. I was like, no, there might be a career in this. So I stuck to it and then actually so I finished my degree. First job was that St Vincent’s back in 1990, which is yeah, 35 years. Next week, and I’ve worked here for seven years in total, but did have a stint at the Eye and Ear back in 1993, as the deputy manager of HS so way back in the in the past century. So yeah, so I was I I think you know enjoyed my time in health information management and coding in case mix systems was you know I got right at the very start of when they were implemented under the current government back in 1992 three so. So that’s it. Like put you on a good pathway to understand how the funding system works and that obviously the interaction with all the staff associated with that. Sorry, so to go from here at Saint Vincent’s down to Peninsula Health as a network manager of health Information Services and then that created opportunities for me to do about 6 different roles in my 22 1/2 years at Frankston, which ended up in the last 8 or 9, whatever it was, as the exec director of operations of it was all up and it’s a health that side and then my first CEO gig being back at the Eye and Ear. Some number of years after I was first there. So it’s a it’s as Sam said earlier, it’s, I haven’t gone too far from where I started being just over the road essentially.

00:03:50 Robert Klupacs Did you do any special training like an MBA or anything like that?

00:03:53 Brendon Gardner Yeah, I actually I sort of fits in to one of my mentors was so Jim Cousins was the deputy CEO at I think at the Royal Women’s Hospital at the time. But was our next door neighbour at home and he said to me, you know, as soon as I could to get in and do my masters of Health Administration.

00:04:14 Robert Klupacs Right.

00:04:14 Brendon Gardner And you know, I was. I had no clue really, so I finished my undergraduate. I got my job at St V’s and then 12 months later I started my masters of health admin from the University of NSW which I did via coursework. So it was residential schools up at the university twice a year. So I sort of stood out a little bit in the fact that people mistook me for an undergraduate at that. That time, because most of the people I remember standing up in one of the first lectures that we did in did around the room. And you know, CEO of these and medical director of that and chief nurse of this and then I stood up as a medical record administrator and everyone who went looked at me. But, but in retrospect it was a great thing to be able to do the course at that time because it still had my study techniques in place. But from an experience point of view, that’s where I’ve benefited later on so. So yes, so finished that when I was 25, I think so it’s which is some time ago now.

00:05:15 Robert Klupacs Ohh I know you still look very young. That’s interesting cause I didn’t. I think I will listen to me quite interesting cause you’re background is quite different to other CEOs of hospitals around Melbourne particularly I know so.

00:05:25 Brendon Gardner Yes. Yeah, it’s there there’s actually a few. But so too other health information managers. That one that was in my year, another one that was in the year below are now chief operating officers at the Royal Melbourne and at Peter Mac. So we’ve sort of followed a bit of a similar path, but it’s it would be very unusual these days to actually follow the path that I’ve followed. So you know, to get to the role that I’ve got. So I’m very fortunate.

00:05:54 Robert Klupacs Let’s talk with the hospital a little bit. So at the Eye and Ear, you’re leading one of Australia’s premier hospitals and you play a crucial role in the care and treatment of conditions. As we said before, pertaining to the eye, ear, nose and throat, and as we said earlier, been going since 1863, can you just describe through our listeners what the mission of the Eye and Ear and its role in the health ecosystem and is there anything like it in other States and or internationally?

00:06:22 Brendon Gardner Yeah. Thanks Rob. it’s unique, unique in many different ways, so. We so it was founded by Andrew Sexton- Grey back in 1863 and he was quite a character by the sounds of things and you know had such a significant focus on trading community. Now the three main pillars on which they establish the hospital back then were, you know, teaching, healing and research. And those 3 pillars are still paramount to the way we go about our business day in, day out, there’s a little bit of a fun fact, but he is actually we were the subject of a story. I can’t remember the name of this. What it is on SBS the do you know where you came from? The moment something like that and Simon Baker, who is the, you know, quite famous Australian actor. Actually he’s great great, great grandson and so we were involved in the in the actual project, but we had no idea of the linkage ourselves. So I remember watching that episode on TV when it aired, and I actually got a little bit teary to be. Now I do get emotionally opening a broom closet, so that’s probably not a great thing, but thought it was just that link of the of the history of the hospital that it went back that far. I mean, we are the third oldest hospital in Melbourne, so you know it’s a it’s a really significant institute. You know we are unique. As I said in terms of Australian health that we the only Eye ENT hospital there are other I facilities such as Sydney Eye Hospital in in NSW but internationally it’s quite unique even in that sense. So it’s quite a privileged position that we actually hold in that in that sense.

00:08:09 Robert Klupacs Yeah, cause my observation is it’s unique. 250,000 is a lot of people to see, but it’s still quite small in size. I mean, we’re sitting at Saint Vincent’s Hospital, and if we you can compare Eye and Ear to Saint Vincent’s

00:08:23 Brendon Gardner Yeah, it’s, uh, probably lucky to be maybe 1/7 of the size. So it’s so from a point of view of. You know, the majority of our patients like full range of services with the 24 hour ED which we see around 45,000 patients per annum in our specialist clinics. So we operate over 110 specialist. Mix and that can see 140 a 150,000 patients per annum through there and then from a surgical perspective it’s around about 14 to 15,000 surgeries per annum, majority of that is same day. So we don’t have the bed stock that, you know, St Vincent’s will have, you know, because of those predominantly bound to get patients through, it’s a more of a day model. There is still the facility for us to treat patients overnight, but it’s a bit of a different setup, so in terms of planned surgery used to be called elective surgery throughput, we ranked 7th in the state for the highest volume of elective surgery or planned elective surgery. So we somewhat better above our average, I think in terms of what we deliver, I do describe it sometimes as we’re a bit like a country hospital in the middle of the city. We’re small enough that you know we have really good linkages with our with our staff right throughout the hierarchy of the hospital, which is also nice just for that personal touch as compared to you know we crossover the road to Saint bees and you know significantly more numbers of staff and as it is with the other hospitals so. So it’s unique, but I like that uniqueness.

00:09:56 Robert Klupacs Ohh good. So you know in 60 year which is amazing is when you think about it, you don’t. I can’t believe you. Well, this is, I know those CEOs are hospitals in the coveted wrinkles and stress. This man looks ok, but he’s been there six years. Can you just for our listeners, can you just tell us about what your short term and long term goals and what do you want your legacy to be because you’re saying earlier every sea of a hospital in stayed at least can only do 10 years maximum? So you got another four years to go. So the interesting to know how what your legacy wants to be.

00:10:24 Brendon Gardner Yeah. Look, I think, Robert, the thing that probably threw us off track was COVID. So when people asked me how long I’ve been at the hospital used to say COVID plus three months. So you know, so I started just before the pandemic. And so that, you know, essentially through the hill, the whole health system out of whack for a number of years and. On top of that, we’ve had the hospital redevelopment that took eleven years to complete, which we completed last year. So there’s been some significant change in that period that we’ve now got to ring the redeveloped hospital where we’re back and we’re all together because we were separated across 2 sites. But we’re now getting back into normal operating rhythm. So you know, so this year is an example has been very much focused on or how do we get our activity levels back to what they were pre COVID and we are exceeding them quite easily now. But then financially, how does that stack up? So there’s been a lot of focus around, you know, how hospitals are funded in Victoria and you know we’ve certainly been the fortunate recipient of the recent work from the department that we, you know, we are well positioned financially. So we’ve got that stable base to operate. So the so the first thing was sort of getting through that period, which was effectively the first five years.

00:11:47 Robert Klupacs Yeah, of course.

00:11:47 Brendon Gardner So, so the 6th year and beyond, it’s very much focused about so how do we further collaborate with our partners? How do we build the brand of the Eye and Ear? Because it is something that within the specialties people know of it. But outside of the specialties of eyes and ENT, it’s not that well known in different places, but if you went internationally, a lot of our clinicians are world leaders and so the reputation of the hospital is quite significant internationally. So for us it’s very much about attending to our patient needs community needs, which is statewide. So it’s not that we’re just treating the patients of East Melbourne. You know, we are a statewide service provide. But moving into a new era of how hospitals are governed and linked. So we’ve just like the government has announced, the establishment of local health service networks now. So there is 76 different hospitals and hospital boards in Victoria that’s now going to be overseen by 12 local health service networks. And we will be joining the Parkville local Health service network. So that’s Peter, Max and sorry, Peter Mack, the Royal Melbourne, the Royal Children’s Dental Health Services Victoria um, the Royal women’s and the Parkville community mental health service. So we’ve now got an opportunity to actually build with those hospitals that also have very much a statewide profile to shape what the future of healthcare looks for a specialist in Victoria, but also have broader ramifications across Australia. So, so very much the you know. How do we build ourselves and the capability of our staff in that in that environment for the betterment of our of our patients?

00:13:38 Brendon Gardner So now that can’t be done without research and the innovation piece that comes with it from a digital perspective. So a lot of our focus is around the digital environment. Well, at the moment we are building a business case for a new electronic medical record and patient administration system. So the core for actually running the hospital, um, and the linkage of that with all the hospitals is going to be a key component for consideration. But you know, getting that digital platform right, which will then enable us to provide more remote care, so care closer to home, which is a really key principle. We don’t want patients needing to come to the centre of the city when we can provide some of their care closer to home.

00:14:24 Robert Klupacs Mention research and here the Bionics Institute in the Eye and Ear, we’ve had a very long relationship together, sharing the same legacy, cause our founder Professor Graham Clark. You looked a lot of work at the hospital and was him that built the cochlear implant. I know a lot of cochlear implantation is done at your hospital. More than a million people worldwide received a cochlear implant and you probably think of the impact of that on their families and their ability to communicate with others. From your perspective, you’ve been there six years, could you touch on the legacy of the cochlear implant, in particular to the Eye and Ear and the morale and the culture of the place. Because I could imagine, you know, people walk pretty tall because this is the place where it started.

00:14:50 Brendon Gardner Yeah, it’s, you know, I do refer to the jewel within our crown. So you know ENT services not as larger as our ophthalmology service, but the cochlear service is a differentiator. The fact that Graham Clark, who you know still with us, is he’s an extraordinary, you know, person and and obviously you know has worked closely with others over many, many years, you know, to bring about what he has. But it was one of the attractions for me to go to the Eye and Ear was the impact that you can have on patients lives. It’s and some of the patients that we, we treat we have from birth to death. You know that they are so and cochlear is an example of that. So that you know we’re putting implants in into young child and will be overseeing their care. You know, right through their lifetimes. So it is something that we’re very proud of. The fact that you know our clinicians are world leaders in this space you know is quite awe inspiring. It’s, you know, I I’m forever impressed by the work that goes on. I you know, I’ve been in. They need to theatre and, you know, watched a cochlear implant being put in place and, you know, as guided by another one of the surgeons as to what every little bit meant. But it was just fascinating and to know the difference that can make is extraordinary. I think you know one of the things I do remember is that, you know, when you see the turning on, you know of their implant for the first time and that recognition of sound, you know, particularly in young children. You know that’s a tear jerking moment, you know, for for many of us. And as I said earlier, I I you know I get a bit weepy at the opening of broom closet. So for me it’s quite a significant event but but I think it’s that impact that true impact that you can see and we do have now the equivalence in the eye space so you know which is wonderful with our gene therapy and so forth. But from a cochlear perspective, to see, you know, I visited Cochlear last year in in NSW and handled. Look at, you know, the bit more of the behind the scenes work but that was also a greater opportunity to understand more of the global impact you know that this has had. I’m very privileged, you know, to hold the reins of the hospital. That, you know, has placed such significant role and forever indebted to Graham Clarke for the work that he’s undertaken.

00:17:37 Robert Klupacs It’s interesting because you, as you say, the relatively small but niche in very important nation, you do got a number of research partnerships, you work with us here at the Institute. You work with CERA, Cochlear, university in Melbourne, all located and interact with you. Can you touch on the importance of the partnerships and a little bit back to the question we asked before about the vision? Where do you see that going? Do you think do you see the Eye and Ear are taking your more a larger step into the research, particularly clinical trials, because you are well positioned to do a lot more clinical work than potentially you’re doing now?

00:18:10 Brendon Gardner Yeah, absolutely. It’s actually the, you know the I reference before you know the benefit of research you know we are ideally positioned because we can the translational research piece of you know taking it from bench top to bedside. You couldn’t get a better environment for that to happen and in the likes of, you know, for the eye side with CERA that.

00:18:34 Brendon Gardner I’m, you know, CERA located within our building, you know they’re they’re ranked 4th in the world for a Research Institute, you know, is only better.

00:18:44 Brendon Gardner Things can come from us, but working more collaboratively with all of our partners. So you know it’s something I think again when you look back to the COVID period, we from a hospital perspective, we were very inwardly focused on how do we manage day by day, how do we not overrun the hospital with COVID. You know, we were very fortunate could say well managed, but the you know during those COVID years. We didn’t actually have a COVID positive patient and we only had four staff that actually contracted COVID during that period when they opened the doors up for you know for community then hey Presto, COVID went through the place, you know, pretty quickly. But I think that you know now that we’re beyond that, it’s very much looking at. So how do we collaborate more? How do we strengthen those research linkages and I think the Parkville precinct will certainly help that because you know very much looking you know the biomedical precinct, you know and our ability we already work very closely with a number of those hospitals as it is. But to be part of the same network you know will only benefit our patients. So I’m, you know, I think the from my perspective, one of the you know when I look at the well the question you asked earlier about you know shorter term goals, it is actually for me to get out a bit more with regards to our research, it will all of our partners and engage more in that space, so cause I said, I think I’ve probably focused a bit too much inward than not enough outward at the moment.

00:20:13 Robert Klupacs yeah, you had to.

00:20:13 Brendon Gardner So yeah, so I think that’s certainly an opportunity for us moving forward, but it’s but the other thing is particularly these, so you can’t do it alone, you know. You have to be partnering and using best of breed to bring about the outcome. So it’s no use us trying to set up, you know, certain portfolios that we know our partners actually have been doing, yeah, for years. So you know, so it’s actually linking in with that and assisting and benefiting from those relationships. But like a borrowed bidirectional benefit, certainly where I would like to see us, you know, head over the next or beyond the next four years and you know that’s the future of the hospital.

00:20:57 Robert Klupacs So, well, take something you say what’s been interesting. So media covered very well, but when I was following COVID in the early days, quite a few ENT friends were the first line in, in particular the UK, a lot of the early doctors dying were ENT cause they were the people.

00:21:14 Robert Klupacs How did you deal with accents when incredibly stressful for you and people are dealing with?

00:21:17 Brendon Gardner Yeah, it was. It was an extraordinary period. Like you know, there’s no rule book for us to to go and look up and say how do we deal with this? It’s our remember, you know, when it first broke, so it was March 2020 and at that point in time, there was certainly a push by government to try and get more elective surgery. I had one of our anaesthetist just give me a call on the weekend and said to me you know the risks that this COVID represents, you know, can’t be understated and certainly focused on potentially the fatal nature of it. And as you said, like with the ENT specialist and with our ophthalmologists, very close proximity to a patient airway and that was the method of transmission. So there are a number of things that we had to actually do to alter the way in which we practise. So from an ice perspective, one of the first things that we needed our facility staff went down to Bunnings, bought some perspex and we actually fashioned a shield that would go over a slit lamp so that there was a barrier between the patient and the, you know and the clinician.

00:22:32 Robert Klupacs What a story.

00:22:33 Brendon Gardner So you know, it was one of those things that we were just we just did it, you know and then as the as the pandemic progressed, you know that became, you know, people actually were doing that as a business, but we didn’t have the time, you know, we had to respond there and then so, so staff welfare was a really important piece and the protection. You know all the staff from, you know, I think the first clinician that actually died as a result of COVID was an ophthalmologist in China. And so that was very much hit home to us, you know, of what we were potentially facing. So to go through with, as I said with, we weren’t a COVID receiving hospital. So if someone did was known to have COVID, then they would be streamed off to another hospital, but that didn’t prevent anyone standing or coming in the front door and presenting with such so. So our relationship with St Vincent’s was really important in, you know, these everyday, but that that time particularly. Yeah, it was the time that brought us all very much together.So you know, I did benefit of the travel in is a bit of a byproduct for the for the COVID times that with everyone being locked down and I travelling from Mornington everyday. So my train trip became a chauffeur driven train to the city everyday because there would be raerely more than two people on my train coming from Frankston. Sorry, so there’s pretty good on, you know, $4.50 a trip to be chauffeur driven all the way into the city. And I probably got to be possessive my seat when people started to come back and sort hanging. I’ve been here all the time, but you know, I could park practically on the platform. You know, there was those issues were I don’t ever see those days again, but Yeah, it’s time that we look back upon now and go probably in somewhat disbelief as to what we actually needed to do with those times. But you know, in health we quickly move on to the next challenge and you know for us part of that’s been treating the post COVID era of people that didn’t present during that time frame that their diseases have progressed to a point that it’s more complicated for our clinicians to deal with than what it would have been in normal business. So there’s certainly a carry on effect that we will still have, you know, for a few years to come yet. Yeah, which really had a lot of the people working at your place.

00:25:05 Robert Klupacs And I know some of the work that’s being done there and they are making some great inventions. You’re an interesting person to look at this cause you’ve been around the healthcare sector for a long time. All the stuff that you’ve seen is just spoke about some of the innovation you had to do. And yet you look about what’s come out the other side of the Australian healthcare innovation. Some good things, but we have a view that we could be doing it a lot better, but what’s your perspective?

00:25:30 Brendon Gardner Yeah, I think Robert’s it probably goes back to what I said earlier with the it’s no point in us doing it alone or you know it definitely needs to be. The staff spread around that is, you know, is just not possible. So I think there’s more of the collaborative effort. I know there’s always the competitive pace of that too, which is, you know, trying to get the balance between collaboration and competition. But I think there’s opportunity for that to, you know, to be further enhanced and I think you know again for us joining the Parkville network, there’s. It opens up more doors to us, I think with regards to those relationships. So you know, for the size of Australia for what we actually contribute to the, you know, to World Health, again, I think we do that above our average. But, That’s not to say there are a lot of other things that we, you know, that still could be, you know, seeing the lot of days so. You know, I think whatever part the hospital complain in assisting that process where we’re all in, so you know it’s a really important piece for us because as I said, from what benefit that can provide to our patients and you know career enhancement for our clinicians, our clinicians practising at top of scope of practise are all really important aspects for us moving forward.

00:27:15 Robert Klupacs You’re seeing lots of kids with eye and ear related disease and then you’re seeing elderly at the back end and everything in between. You have a very large footprint of people you have to deal with.

00:27:30 Brendon Gardner Yeah, I think that might be. I think I’m right in this in reciting that I think the oldest person who’s received a cochlear implant is 98. So if you consider that we’ve been putting implants into the three month olds you know through to the range of 98 and there’s probably a lot of unmet need in that. Yeah. The over 60 population, particularly you know that could benefit from an implant. So there are things that we put in place, such as the cochlear implant programme, Victorian cochlear implant programme is that’s an initiative where you know, because we are have been essentially at capacity trying to manage the patients that have received an implant at the Eye and Ear or via the Eye and Ears partners. So how do we manage those patients that we can provide? Set audiological care closer to home and those audiologists then link in. Come into the hospital, have studied days with us so that there’s an extension of the Eye and Ears product and from patients perspective they can receive that care close to home rather having to come into the into the hospital itself each time you know it will be a vast improvement in there their experience. So the more that we can do that and the more that model can be rolled out into other aspects of the care that we deliver, you know it can only be better for the path.

00:28:46 Robert Klupacs Now you knew this question was coming because you listened to your podcast. One of our favourite questions here is mentorship. You mentioned someone earlier on, but in your life cause you’re actually really interesting case study. How did you get to where you are and who were the mentors and help you along the way?

00:29:02 Brendon Gardner Yeah, I as I as I referenced earlier like Jim Cousins was a very much an early guidance has to you know what study I should be completing you know which position me well particularly young early younger you know when I was you know going up for different roles but. yeah, one of the key I’ve worked under a number of different people over that over that journey and all teach you something a little bit different but probably you know one of the most significant mentors has been Doctor Sherene Devanesen and Sherene is my board chair at the at the Eye and Ear. But I have worked under Sherene, in the previous life at Peninsula Health and certainly you know Sherene’s guidance to me over the and giving me the opportunity, I think the other. Probably significant sliding door moment in in my career was back in 1999 when the Kosovo refugees were actually brought to Victoria, and so the Victorian Government, the federal government actually established a number of safe havens, and there was one established at Portsea. And so I remember one Monday morning, got up to work and I got a call from the CEO’s office and suggest asked if I could head up to the office, which I thought was going to be about a case mix issue. Um, but so I took all my, you know, my coding bits with me. Uh and Sharene was in the office, as I think she was, executive director of medical services at the time. We have been asked to establish the portside safe haven and so the offer was given to me “Did I want to try and set that up?” So within a week we had to set up an entire health system. You know, a quarantine station at ports. See, you know, it’s an extraordinary experience, but that was the thing that got me out of the basement, I suppose from, you know, from a medical records perspective or health information management perspective. So I learned a lot and there was a lot of relationship building in that, you know, with partners that you would not normally deal with. So Sherene has been, and there’s one keyword, which is it’s all about relationships and not a true word could be said even the other day I was in a meeting with the Parkville UM Network CEO is and, we had Derek Freely who’s been working with the department. An international expert in this area and he said the formation of the OR the success of the formation of these networks is not based on how it’s governed. It’s based on the relationships and I sure word couldn’t be stated so. So yes, I think it’s been, I’ve been very I’ve benefitted from the opportunities that you know they’ve been afforded to me and the guidance that Sherene’s given over that that period. It’s so not just in my early career, but, you know, even right through now to, you know, to being, you know, CEO level that, you know, she’s always got sage advice about various matters and I’m very thankful for that.

00:32:10 Robert Klupacs That’s fantastic, if you could jump in a time machine, Brendan and look at the young Brendan. What would you say to him and what would you do differently? And if and what he is most proud of saying.

00:32:26 Brendon Gardner Yeah, probably would have trained harder at footy. I would if you know got myself set for a draft. I’ll come to that later the I think the thing it’s very different. Today I I was like my children, you know, 28, 25 and 22 and all of taken, you know, slightly different paths but. I don’t see what they start as now is where they’ll end up. You know the career options are, you know, they’re roles like that exist now that never existed when you know when I was their age. But I think it’s the, you know, it’s the openness to new opportunities. So, you know, one of the things that I always came to, you know share with staff is I’m more than happy for us to try something different rather than just sitting on what we’ve been doing. If it fails, we can always go back to what we were doing. So have the ability to look with wide eyes wide open, which is probably a bit of a pun. For the hospital, but you know, to what opportunities might be there? And not necessarily follow a path that is set out on a piece of paper. It will vary and just you know, but I think the key thing is you’ve got to enjoy what you do. So and I do, you know, I do enjoy what I do. Uhm yeah, there were some days, probably not as enjoyable as others, but the majority are very enjoyable. So yeah, it’s I think it’s one of those things just being open, being kind you know and don’t be afraid to have a go.

00:34:09 Robert Klupacs Great, fantastic advice for everyone.

00:34:11 Robert Klupacs Listen to this and this is the last question for you, Brendan. You talked about having joy. I’ve done a bit of research on you, and unbeknownst to a lot of people, Brendan is still an avid football super rules mature rules, and so the question that a few people asked us to ask you today, are you pulling on the boots?

00:34:28 Brendon Gardner Yes, yes, sorry I am. I you know, I think I’m busy with my sporting career at 56 than I was when I was at 18, but so playing probably the over 50s and the over 50 fives this year. So probably another 20 games ahead this winter, but it’s not. You probably get told a lot of the you shouldn’t be doing that, but I I couldn’t be a greater converter or advocate for the actual you know masters. The camaraderie and the support that is provided within the club and also the clubs in which you play, so it’s, it’s not about, you know, trying to go out there and clean one another up. You know, it’s actually it’s a joy to actually go out there and play against guys your own age. Um, because it’s not normal. Most people are, you know, probably sitting on the couch and all throwing abuse at an umpire at an AFL game. I thoroughly enjoyed it. It’s a great outlet, you know, I’m still playing cricket 43 years after I started. So I think I get about. I might be 8 spare weekends a year. I think that it’s not sport related but I think it’s important that I keep doing that as long as I can until I get drafted anyhow website.

00:35:50 Robert Klupacs We’ve reached the end of the podcast today and I have to thank you so much for sharing their insights and the thoughts giving us, and particularly insights about the Eye and Ear hospital. We know how busy you are and we greatly appreciate the time taken today to have those discussions with us. Tell listeners, I hope you enjoy listening and look forward to introducing you to our guests in future podcasts. There are links to everything we talked about in the show notes, and we look forward to welcoming you next time.