Dr Anne-Laure Puaux [00:01:29] Thank you, Robert, and thank you for having me.

Robert Klupacs [00:01:31] To start us off, could you share your journey and how you went from a PhD in Paris, France in immunology all the way to joining WEHI as Head of Business development and now more recently as CEO of WEHI Ventures. Dr Anne-Laure Puaux [00:01:46] Great question. Thanks, Robert. So I think, you know, the starting point was that I always wanted to use science to develop innovations. Okay. So new products or, you know, just technologies and the idea to create something new, something that didn’t exist before using science and and new technologies. And so that was my starting point. And I think that came from what I was exposed to as a student. So in Europe, you know, things are not perfect, or better than in Australia, but certainly something that they have that I think is a little bit lacking in Australia is a very, very strong industry base in, in life science and pharma. And so as a student, you are much more exposed to what that looks like and the opportunities that might exist there. And so before I even doing my PhD, I had the chance to do, internships, for example, in the research department at Sanofi Pasteur, one of the leading vaccine companies in the world. And so then this became my idea. Yes, I can learn the best science in academia because that’s the best place to do good science. And then I will go on into companies, to actually use that science and develop new projects for, for the patient’s benefit. And also a PhD, you know, very interesting degree if you think about it, because that’s one of the very few degrees that is recognised globally. You know, you have a PhD, you can come to any country and and explain what you what you have been doing. Following that, I went into different roles in biotech companies, pharma and academia as well. And I kind of specialised working in that interface. Yeah. So that’s how I came to be a kind of specialist in, you know, working, at the interface between scientific research, academia and private companies. And so I think that was useful, to come to, WEHI and we WEHI Ventures now. Robert Klupacs [00:03:41] You skated over a little bit there. So PhD at Institut Pasteur and now in Australia and Asia in between. You got to tell us about that journey and how you finished up here. Dr Anne-Laure Puaux [00:03:52] Yeah. So in terms of geographical areas, that was a lot of fun. So, you know, once you start living in different countries and places, that becomes I would say a bit addictive. Essentially. So, you know, it’s great to discover new places and new countries, new, new ways of working. Obviously it comes with challenges as well. But, you know, that’s part of the of the game. And so yeah, so I really, had the chance to be able to alternate between academic research and industry roles. And I think that’s something that is not very common in Australia, but something that people do. More often, I would say in other places, other countries around the world. So I did a postdoc in Singapore. I worked in a biotech company in France. After my postdoc, I had gained some scientific knowledge that was of interest to GSK. So I was recruited at GSK, and then within GSK, I was very lucky to have the chance to move from R&D to business development and do an MBA in the process as well. So I think that’s how, you know, you gained that knowledge around cience and business, and that’s what is very important involved, such as business development at medical research institutes. Robert Klupacs [00:05:05] Just obviously a French speaker, brilliant English speaker and then you did your MBA in Spain. So it was in Spanish. Was that in English? Dr Anne-Laure Puaux [00:05:13] No so the program I did was a global executive MBA. And so it’s a global program completely in English, unfortunately I don’t speak Spanish. Robert Klupacs [00:05:23] Now I wanted to jump into the next part of your life. But before I jump to WEHI Ventures specifically, can you tell us about your experience as someone deeply involved in both business development now, and do you just take us through how did you navigate that intersection that you just alluded to between early stage research, commercialisation and the whole translation process, and in particular – and you’ve alluded to your being given to Australia – but in particular the different mindset between academic discovery and drug development. Dr Anne-Laure Puaux [00:05:55] Yeah, I think that’s the key question. Right. And this is a big subject and there are people working on that subject. And there are, you know, seminal… I mean, we could spend three days discussing this. So I would say these two worlds do have similarities and differences. And they enrich each other, when, you know, they work together very cleverly. And so as a starting point, I would like to say that the science is the same. Science is the same everywhere. You know, people who have not been exposed to research and development in a private company might think that the science is somehow of a lesser quality in companies or in industries. And I can say that this is not correct. So the science is the same. The people are the same, you know. Everyone in industry, around the pharma industry has done a PhD and some, usually several postdocs. So I think you need to understand that. Yes, that’s the starting point. And the science doesn’t turn differently somehow. If you work for a company and you do a drug discovery and development project. Now, the goals and the ways of working are very, very different. And so, for example, one of the very important element, I believe, is that drug development is actually a team sport. You have at the early stages, your team between, you know, 10-15 people working together at the late stages. Hundreds, thousands of people to achieve one goal together. And so I feel like in academia, it’s more like, yeah, there is people are very well organised for their scientific achievement, which, you know, is fair because it’s very difficult to be a successful academic scientist. And so we have that kind of superstar, you know, world around them, and everything is organised around them and their and their science. But in industry, this is not the way it works. It’s really a team’s, effort. In drug developmentl, also another key element is that you can change directions and you will change direction because again to science is the same. But you always need a good reason and the goal remains the same. In research, of course, you know, research is the creativity. You know, seizing opportunities, changing the goalposts are changing. And that’s perfectly fine. That’s how, you know, we get great new science developed. So I think I think those would be the key differences. And it’s not easy to navigate them. But I think with, you know, education and experience/exposure, people can get to know both of those worlds. Robert Klupacs [00:08:23] Just as an aside, do you see a difference between what you saw when you were working in France and in Europe compared to what you’re seeing now in Australia? Or do you feel it’s the same? Dr Anne-Laure Puaux [00:08:34] So my feeling in that in Australia, people, in the academic world, are not as much exposed to industry R&D. And so some of them are not interested in. That’s fine. You know, they probably get what they need from their academic world, but some of them are curious about it. And so I think the challenge for the Australian economy is to really develop the sector more, to give them the opportunities to have that experience, because today I don’t think we are there. Robert Klupacs [00:09:03] There’s a nice segue way into my next question, so I want to talk about the creation of WEHI Ventures. Clearly, it’s unique in Australia and possibly the world in and particularly in the medical research landscape. I know a lot of us, and I’m particularly me and our listeners, I suspect, just as much me are thinking what led to the formation, how did WEHI bring together stakeholders to buy into the concept, and what do you hope to get out of it in the next ten years? Dr Anne-Laure Puaux [00:09:32] Absolutely. So WEHI Ventures was created a year ago after many years of, you know, discussion, preparation and, you know, and to get to that final decision 12 months ago. And so this is a seed and pre-seed fund – strategic investment fund. So it means that this is an investment fund that will, or that is already investing into WEHI ideas or WEHI collaboration or WEHI people to deliver commercial returns. And so really the goal is to form a portfolio of commercial programs that have the potential to, to create financial returns. Everything is very early stage as I said it’s seed and pre-seed. So the financial returns you know are but unsure and they will come – if they come – they would come in the very long term. And, and I think WEHI know that and embraces the level of risk. And really the thinking behind is that WEHI, like many other medical research institutes, has lots of ideas that are really sometimes just ideas or a little bit more, but too early stage to be attractive to any investors like VC or any pharmaceutical company or biotech companies. But we could see that with a wealth of ideas that we have and a track record at WEHI, we some targeted investment, we think we can, really develop greater commercial success. And, you know, the ambition is to multiply by an order of magnitude, really. And so what would happen if there are commercial success and financial returns to the fund, is that actually, they would go straight back to WEHI. Robert Klupacs [00:11:09] It’s a $66 million fund, and that sounds like a lot of money, but from the venture capital perspective, it’s quite small. Dr Anne-Laure Puaux [00:11:15] That’s right. Robert Klupacs [00:11:16] Are you looking? Yeah and it’s bizarre, isn’t it? But are you looking to do smallish investments to get to killer experiments to prove a, prove a concept before you take it out? Or do you think you’re going to write larger checks to take them a bit further on? Dr Anne-Laure Puaux [00:11:32] Yeah, it’s a very good question and something we debate quite a lot. And the answer is both actually. So can start at idea stage if those ideas, you know are attractive novel and commercial in nature but with even no data. So in those cases we really deploy very small amount of capital to do that killer experiment, because, you know, you need to identify the key risk factor. And you say, okay, is this does this have any leg at all? Does it pass the pub test, you know, is it just crazy? Or so that’s what we do. But then when you come to a little bit of the more advanced stage, which are still very early stage. I think, you know, depending on the project, you might need to deploy a fair amount of capital. And so that comes back to your first comment about, $66 million being a lot of money. And that’s a lot of money for a seed and pre-sed fund. And that’s really great that, you know, WEHI is bold enough to make that decision and to, to make that step. But I think we are also very cognisant of the fact that most of the deal flow we have at WEHI around development of novel therapeutics, a specific field of, you know, a R&D that is very, you know, that has characteristic of being very expensive, very long term and very risky. And then, you know, if this works, obviously, this is a very large, level of payout that you can expect at the end. And so we think that $66 million dollars over ten years can make a real difference at a pre seed and seed stage, but we don’t have too much money. And, so we are very limited in the choices we can make. And that’s I think that’s good because, you know, having always attention on that attention to the last dollar that we might be able to save by stopping a project that will not work is very important in venture capital investment. And so to answer your question, we we I think we make the choice at this stage to not sprinkle money too much over a large number of programs. Apart from those very early stages that I mentioned. But then we really need to make the right bets and put the appropriate amount of capital to make a real difference to them. Robert Klupacs [00:13:53] Fantastic. Is it only open to, WEHI projects, or can anyone in Melbourne ring you up and say, I’ve got a great idea? Dr Anne-Laure Puaux [00:14:00] Yes. So, the answer is, a bit in between. So this is WEHI’s money, in this fund. So the investment mandate is such that we need a WEHI connection. So not anyone that in Melbourne can come with an idea. However, there is a little bit of, flexibility around that. So, of course WEHI people or ideas are eligible. But if you think about a collaboration that would involve WEHI, that could be also in scope. Certainly. And we have been also encouraged by the board, interestingly, to think about this fund as a talent attraction tool. So if someone you know has an idea that fits well within the WEHI capabilities or strategy and wants to join WEHI that is something we can make. We can make happen. Yeah. Robert Klupacs [00:14:48] I’m listening with awe actually. Not all of us in the medical research sector have a $66 million, let’s say, plaything. But we all talk about the valley of death. And for the sake of $1 million, something is going to go by the wayside. You have that. Mind you you have to be disciplined. I know that, but I’m looking at you feeling very envious. Dr Anne-Laure Puaux [00:15:09] This is an amazing position to be in. And we are we are very, extremely fortunate at WEHI to be in this position. We are very conscious of it. Now, I would say, you know, what we can see that, seed funds are popping up a little bit more now. So certainly, this type of initiative is not unique in the world. There is precedent. And we’ve been talking to these people, in the UK and in the US, they’ve been doing very similar things. They started earlier, they had huge successes. So this is quite encouraging. But even here in Melbourne, we have quite a number of, early stage fund that were created in the past, I would say two years, which is really encouraging. I think by now we have access to seed stage capital in in Australia and in Melbourne particularly. The next challenge would be series A, but I think the idea in the sector is that when we have more mature companies that require that level of capital, the funds would be created. So there would be a kind of, you know, stepwise development of the in the ecosystem and the funding capability in parallel. I think there are also projects around, developing seed funds that are accessible to, you know, there are university seed funds at the moment, and I think there is ideas around, MRI seed fund, which could be accessible to anybody. Robert Klupacs [00:16:31] You you mentioned earlier that most of what WEHI does is therapeutics in nature. So it is it’s small molecule biologics. And there’s a reason I aske= the question because early stage investment in biologics is incredibly expensive and hard and very high risk, because you got to invest upfront without really knowing it’s going to work. Whereas the small molecule – you can you can work around that to some degree. What’s what’s the mix between what WEHI Ventures wants to look at. Dr Anne-Laure Puaux [00:16:58] Yeah. So we have a very good mix in terms of modalities. We are very big on small molecules actually. But we also have a quite a big. Quite a good deal flow in terms of biologics that includes things like nanobodies, monoclonal antibodies. But we also have ideas around cell therapies and RNA based therapeutics. So it’s quite diverse. I think, you know, biologics and small molecules are the main ones. They have slightly different risk profiles, but a little bit of diversification isn’t too bad either. So I think we are very open to it. We don’t have any restriction on the modalities. Robert Klupacs [00:17:35] Would you, if we’re back to biologics, I mean, not looking at around Melbourne, I’ve seen many projects. We’ve got some here where you’ve got to actually get the cell line developed, made into a GMP manufacturing batch for toxicology. Dr Anne-Laure Puaux [00:17:47] Yeah. Robert Klupacs [00:17:48] Which is with $3 to $4 million activity. But also there’s very few people who are set up to do that in Melbourne. Some in Australia. But what do you do internally? This must come up all the time. You need to get a batch made, cell line developed. Who do you go to or do you do that in-house? Dr Anne-Laure Puaux [00:18:07] So we don’t do that in-house. I think, you know, these kind of activities are typically outsourced to service providers. And you are right. We don’t have many of them in Australia, I don’t think. I’m not aware of I mean we have yeah, very little in Melbourne, but yeah, I think companies or spinout companies would tend to outsource those activities because those are very specialised. And you are right, they’re very expensive. Robert Klupacs [00:18:31] Yeah. Oh well, I was hoping you might have an answer for it for the rest of the listeners about how to overcome it. But you’ve got the same issues. Dr Anne-Laure Puaux [00:18:37] No, it’s the same issues. Yeah. Money doesn’t solve everything. Robert Klupacs [00:18:42] Okay. It’s always interesting for our listeners to hear of some of the biggest challenges. And we want people to tell us the war stories of what our guests have encountered, particularly when it comes to fostering innovation, dealing with the nay sayers. I know you’ve had a long career, is still quite young, but you’ve had a long career. You’ve been at both sides of the table, both in academe and the commercial world. We’d love to get from you, just some personal stories about things that went well, things that didn’t go well. Things were unexpected. On your journey to date? Dr Anne-Laure Puaux [00:19:13] Yeah, thanks. And thanks for mentioning that I’m still young. You know it makes me feel better. This is really a good day. Robert Klupacs [00:19:20] You’ll always be younger than me, Anne-Laure. Dr Anne-Laure Puaux [00:19:25] So, yeah, there are definitely, you know, challenges along the way. Like, like for everyone. You know, I can mention maybe two of them. So the first one is about, you know, that type of work that we do around, you know, sourcing new technologies to create new products in the, in the pharmaceutical industry. And, the one example I can mention is that I’ve been working on the MRNA vaccines for a very long time. So my background is immunology. I’ve been, you know, working in development of vaccines and immune therapies for many, many years, before I joined WEHI in 2018. And so, yeah, MRNA vaccines have been around for decades at research and then, clinical development stages. And so I’ve been working quite a lot on, this idea that, you know, the technology is there or was there at the time. It has advantages. It could work. There is that there are data to prove that it could work. But then and maybe this can come as a surprise to people, to many people. But really, we were struggling to find the use case. So people would say, yes, there is this MRNA platform for vaccines. Great. But what do you want to use it for? And I think now we all have the answer. Obviously. But at the time before Covid, you know, we didn’t have that kind of use case. Although we can see, yes, pandemic use, of course, you know, but pandemic is not an easy business case to make because you don’t know when it will happen. You don’t know, actually if your technology would be applicable to that exact battle, then. So there is a lot of unknowns. And so developing novel products and novel technologies into the market from a pharma company perspective is extremely expensive. We are talking about like billion, probably in the range of a billion of dollars. And so when you have things product on the market that already work and protect the world’s population from most of the infectious diseases that that exist, it’s actually not that easy to make the case. Yes. Let’s invest $1 billion to create something that would be maybe marginally better than what we actually have today. So I think, yes, this was a big challenge for me. Can’t say that I succeeded. But obviously the the Covid and the history now with the pandemic that we know really shows that if you develop a product and you believe that that would be a use case, sometimes, you know, things happen. And I think MRNA vaccines have really made a huge contribution, during Covid and so very lucky that those companies had those platforms ready to go effectively, to, to contribute to the, the management of the Covid pandemic. But yeah, a lot of people were trying to to move this for a while before, and it wasn’t that easy. Robert Klupacs [00:22:20] I knew a little bit about it, but I just thought there was a lot more that had to be done very quickly. But as you say, that built on 30 or 40 years of work. Dr Anne-Laure Puaux [00:22:27] Correct. Yeah, there were a lot of clinical data available and the technology was there basically. Yeah. Robert Klupacs [00:22:34] With your global experience across just about all the world: Europe, US, Asia now, Australia. How do you see the different regions contributing to the advancement of medical technology? Because I suspect all of them have got different attributes and different skills and different strengths. Do you see there’s regional strengths that are different or they come in and some are better than others? And if you do, how do you see them becoming synergistic? I mean we’ve heard from a few people here, Australia actually is incredibly good at discovery, pretty poor in translation, Asia – people talk about it very good in later stage development. Not that great creative discovery – that’s maybe unfair, but that’s what I’ve heard. And then clear the North Americans and North American and European markets have had this long history. What’s your view? You were, you’ve been everywhere. Dr Anne-Laure Puaux [00:23:27] Yes. So I think it’s true. There are a lot of, disparities, between the regions. So I would say, you know, the general sentiment is that the U.S. is the most advanced by far, by far. And so in some markets, some foreign products, the U.S. is sometimes 90% of the global market. And so I would say the US is really a degree of magnitude. You know, so yes, all those regions are very different. And I would say the U.S. is really the leading, geographical area. They are leading by a degree of magnitude compared to Europe. Robert Klupacs [00:24:09] Yeah. Dr Anne-Laure Puaux [00:24:10] So you have the U.S., you know, where the ecosystem is highly mature. Innovation is there; clinical trials are there. You know, you have everything, all the elements. It’s supported by, a lot of money from the federal government. So you have all the components. Having said that, even in the U.S., you have hotspots, things in the middle, in between. So obviously Boston, you know, is the model for, for everyone. But they are really far, far, far, leading the pack. Europe is actually quite far behind the US. if you look at the numbers, but, you know, they are following. So they have they start to have, more investment, more mature. They have obviously excellent innovation, clinical trial capabilities and a strong industry base. I would say in Australia we are even further behind, on that. And you’re right that, Australia has very, big strengths in discovery and science. So that’s, you know, a top notch science really in Australia. And that’s what attracted me, actually, because I could see, you know, the, the substrate, the starting material is there. Obviously, Australia has also those trends that everyone is talking about in terms of the regulatory framework that is very, you know, easy to work with compared to other regions and very reliable and also very strong in, early stage clinical trials, first time in human. So it’s really a reputation there. I think what we are really lacking in Australia is that transition between discovery and clinical trials. And then later on we have late stage clinical trials but they are always, almost always for the benefit of companies that are overseas. And we also are lagging a little bit, I think, in terms of approval and reimbursement. Market access is not, I think could be could be improved in Australia. And I know there are lot of discussions around that. So I think it’s a case of building on our strengths and trying to connect the dots between, you know, those strengths. Robert Klupacs [00:26:17] Sort of allied to that. So this is the world now, you had a great story you just gave us about mRNA, vaccines and where this led to. But what emerging trends in medical technology excite you right now? Now that you’re a venture capitalist, you know, trying to get ahead of the curve. How do you foresee those trends? And do you look outside your current ecosystem to bring them in? You mentioned before that part of the reason for the fund at WEHI is perhaps talent attraction. And where do you and what do you think that will lead, and how do you think that will change the way WEHI ventures sort of evolves? Dr Anne-Laure Puaux [00:26:53] Yeah, absolutely. I think it’s really a game of identifying new, promising things that will be, you know, will become the focus of the investment in the next couple of years. If you are working on something that’s already had investment peak three years ago, you are probably too late. So you’re right. This is a very important question. I can give you a couple of examples, but, at the moment, there is this area of research and development which is led by actually already several companies, about ten companies.. 5 to 10 companies around the world working on, in vivo targeting delivery of mRNA. So that’s an idea where you would have the mRNA expressing some kind of therapeutic cargo, that is packaged in a particular.. in a way that it would, if you inject it into the human body, would go straight to specific cell types or specific organs to do a kind of gene therapy, in the, in those places. So today it’s not yet, you know, working. But people are working on it. And the idea is that it could replace many, many cell and gene therapies, that are in development because it could be cheaper to produce. It’s off the shelf. You don’t have this autologous, you know, cell management problem. So I think this is quite, you know, something that is very promising. And, I can give another example, which is, you know, we have seen a lot of investment recently into antibody drug conjugates. So I would say if you start your, ADC program today, you will probably come very late. But I think that illustrates the fact that platform technologies are still very important. You know, ADC were a novel platform technology 20 years ago. And now we see the fruits of that. Robert Klupacs [00:28:43] Yep Dr Anne-Laure Puaux [00:28:44] So I think we are always looking for big ideas that could become the new way of developing novel types of drugs. And I think that’s very important. Robert Klupacs [00:28:53] Ah, and so do you see this, is there any technologies at the edges, do you think with incubation from WEHI Ventures could become the platform of ten years time? Dr Anne-Laure Puaux [00:29:02] That’s the goal. Yes. That the goal. That’s the base that we are trying to to make. You know, we do we don’t have a crystal ball, but.. Robert Klupacs [00:29:10] Ah, ok. Dr Anne-Laure Puaux [00:29:11] You know, there are elements. If you have a good idea. Yes. It’s not yet a reality, of course, but if the platform as it’s, you know, is proposed to be created, present advantages over the modalities that already exist. And I think you have a you have a strong case. Robert Klupacs [00:29:26] We’re coming to the end. I’ve got two last questions for you on on this podcast in particular, we’re really keen to understand mentorship and find out how that works for people because we know what underlies so much of innovation development. I know our listeners would love to hear from you, who your mentors have been in your career to date, and who and what you look for in a mentor and what you think is a good mentor for the perhaps the portfolio companies you’re creating, into the future? Dr Anne-Laure Puaux [00:29:54] Yes, I think you’re right. Mentoring is extremely important. So I always recommend people to think about that. And I think it’s especially important here in Australia where, as I said, I believe the the opportunities to be exposed to different types of jobs, you know, and and roles is relatively limited. So if you have access to a mentor, I would say for me, in the past, people have been choosing to mentor me where people that were in roles that, you know, I could see myself in in the future. And so the mentor will always give you their own perspective. But, it’s about the content. So it’s not like a coach, you know, who would just ask you the question and you need to answer your own questions. But the mentor would give you examples of what good looks like and how to get to.. Robert Klupacs [00:30:43] Ah. Dr Anne-Laure Puaux [00:30:44] ..the similar, place and, recommend ways to get there to you. I think that’s how, you know, I’ve been seeing mentoring in the past. I’ve done a fair amount of mentoring also myself because as I said, people are curious about, you know, this other side, which is they call the dark side, which I totally disagree with. And so I’m very always happy to – I’m always very happy to talk to people about my own experience, but recognising there are other ways, of course, and connecting them to the also other people that might help them on their journey. Robert Klupacs [00:31:17] Last question. We’ve got lots of entrepreneurs and innovators listening to this podcast. So for them who are looking to enter into the medical technology space, whether it’s drug discovery, drug development, medtech, what advice would you give them based on your experiences, particularly in venture capital and business development? Dr Anne-Laure Puaux [00:31:35] Yes. So, hopefully we have more and more entrepreneurs. I think, this will really help the development of the sector. And so the advice I would get is really, for our biotech sector, which is a deep tech, right? You really need to think about that combination of science and business. So if your background, you’re a scientist, I would say that’s great because that’s the hard part. Okay. It’s not that easy to do a PhD to do academic research. It’s not something you can learn, you know, in six months. So you have the right, you know, a starting point, but do recognise that the commercial side is actually very important as well. You don’t have that knowledge, you don’t have that experience. You need to acquire it. It’s possible. Totally feasible. But I think, you know, you need to get there in terms of thinking. Yes, I have gaps in my knowledge, which is the business side. I will need to train myself, get exposure somehow. You know, this is not something that you know can be made up. If you are more coming from the commercial background, you need to have that scientific support because it’s not possible, I think, today to invest in biotech companies without the understanding of what is proposed. Right. And that’s going to be harder, you know, because I don’t know of business people who are going to say, yes, I’m going to say, let’s spend four years doing a PhD in an academic lab. And, you know, then I will do more. Yes, but that’s not going to happen. So I would say, therefore this type of people, great, you know, you want to contribute, you want to be in that biotech world. You are probably interested in those things. I would say you can surround yourself with the people with that knowledge. They can advise you, they can let you know what you know, what would be solid, what would be the weak points? And they can help you in that way. Robert Klupacs [00:33:27] Just on that, I said that was the last question, but you’ve prompted something. So you you were heavily involved both personally, and at WEHI, the creation of Jumar. I think that’s right. Is that something that people should strive to get into? Because there’s lots of really smart people. So that’s something that you would suggest them to go to? Dr Anne-Laure Puaux [00:33:45] Yes, absolutely. So I think, you know, Jumar, is a biochem based incubator space for biotech start-ups companies. And, they provide office space and labs, wet lab space for those companies, but also kind of support around, you know, developing your business case, raising funds and all that. Actually, I was, there, a couple of days ago, they were presenting the outcome of the their first, six months mentoring program. So two, companies, have been mentored by very experienced, very senior people. And it was a six month program. You know, it looked very, promising. And, and the CEO said that the value that they got out of that was was huge. So I would say Jumar is here to, you know, as a space, but also as a place to connect with like-minded people and really to to provide that support. So if you have a company, you need to be a company to be eligible. But if you have that, I would encourage people to look at that. Robert Klupacs [00:34:47] Right. And so we’ve reached the end of the podcast today, and I thank you so much for sharing your insights on how I can improve innovation in Australia. And I wish we all have the greatest and success. To our listeners, I hope you enjoyed listening and I look forward to introducing you to our guests in future podcasts. There are links to everything we talked about in the show notes, and we look forward to welcoming you next time.